[whereagles]

Scoring: MP

Matchpoints, mixed field.

---

How will you manage to avoid bidding a slam here?

For the record, pard and I produced this, perhaps unconvincing but effective, auction:

Me pard
2♣ 3♣ (ace of clubs, no more info)
3♠ 4♥
6♦ 6♠ (commenting "I didn't like this" )

LHO led a spade after which it made easily. Spades did break, but I'm not telling you whether diams broke or not

6♠ is actually the most decent of slams.

[Echognome]

Ugly misfit.

I'm telling you how I think it would go. In my system, it would be south making all the decisions and it's not clear what he'd do.

1♣(1) - 1♥(2)
1♠® - 2♣(3)
2♦® - 2♠(4)
2NT® - 3♦(5)
3♥® - 4♦(6)
4♥® - 4NT(7)
?

® Relay
(1) 16+ any
(2) 4+♥, could be canape
(3) 4+♣
(4) 55 or better
(5) Equal shortage
(6) 1=6=1=5 with 4 controls
(7) ♥A or K and ♣AKQ or no club honours.

So then North is known to be x Kxxxx x AKQxx (since he has 4 controls).

South might then bid 5♦ or 5♠ depending on how he felt. I think slam is a bad proposition. South might have bid 4♠ over the 4♦ bid, but with two bullets opposite, South will want to be in 6♦. In fact it's quite unfortunate here that South has to play any of the sensible contracts. I imagine the TOSR people might be in better shape as playing the contract from the North hand is a big help on this hand.

[Free]

South opens a strong ♣, and relays:

1♣ - 1♠ (GF 4+♥)
1NT - 2♠ (55+ ♥-♣)
2NT - 3♦ (6511 distribution)
3♥ - 4♣ (1-6-1-5 with 8 AKQ points)
4♦ - 4♠ (1/2 tophonours ♥, 0/3 in ♣)

Now it's decision time: you know about x-Kxxxxx-x-AKQxx and I also think 6♠ is most likely to make... 6♦ needs ♦ 3-3 split or the J in partner's hand, but we can't find that out.

[winkle]

Not that I'd ever get to it, but I prefer 6♣ to 6♠.

[mike777]

"South will want to be in 6d. In fact it's quite unfortunate here that South has to play any of the sensible contracts. I imagine the TOSR people might be in better shape as playing the contract from the North hand is a big help on this hand."



2C=2D
3D=3H
3S=4C
4S=4NT(?)
6D(?)

[mikeh]

Well, I hate 2♣ as an opening: what else is new?

1♦  1♥
2♠  3♣
3♠  4♣
6♦

With no strong confidence that this would be the at-the-table sequence.

2♠ natural gf

3♣ natural, showing a decent response (2N would be all weak hands and some strong ones)

3♠ and 4♣ are natural, and the non-3N bid allows South to count on some extra and useful values, with 3♠ promising at least 5=6 in my suits.

6♦ seems pragmatic. Sure, on the hand, 6♠ appears to be better: although a ♥ lead through and a ♠ back makes the slams equivalent. Maybe South can decide to bid 6♠ instead, but I'd not risk it.

I never get too worked up if we reach the second-best spot on true freaks...

[jdonn]

Echognome, on May 26 2006, 08:42 AM, said:

Ugly misfit.

I'm telling you how I think it would go. In my system, it would be south making all the decisions and it's not clear what he'd do.

1♣(1) - 1♥(2)
1♠® - 2♣(3)
2♦® - 2♠(4)
2NT® - 3♦(5)
3♥® - 4♦(6)
4♥® - 4NT(7)
?

® Relay
(1) 16+ any
(2) 4+♥, could be canape
(3) 4+♣
(4) 55 or better
(5) Equal shortage
(6) 1=6=1=5 with 4 controls
(7) ♥A or K and ♣AKQ or no club honours.

So then North is known to be x Kxxxx x AKQxx (since he has 4 controls).

South might then bid 5♦ or 5♠ depending on how he felt. I think slam is a bad proposition. South might have bid 4♠ over the 4♦ bid, but with two bullets opposite, South will want to be in 6♦. In fact it's quite unfortunate here that South has to play any of the sensible contracts. I imagine the TOSR people might be in better shape as playing the contract from the North hand is a big help on this hand.

I think, strategywise, you should bid 6♦ over 4♦ without asking any honor cards. Even if he had both aces you wouldn't have bid a grand, and you would increase your chances of getting a favorable (club) lead that way.

[Echognome]

jdonn, on May 26 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

I think, strategywise, you should bid 6♦ over 4♦ without asking any honor cards. Even if he had both aces you wouldn't have bid a grand, and you would increase your chances of getting a favorable (club) lead that way.

I'm sure you are correct. But I wouldn't think to bid it that way at the table. In fact, I'm still tanking as to what contract I would put us in. I'll let you know when I decide or when the opponents fall asleep.

[Codo]

At the table I would like to play against the strong club relayers, because they will fail to reach a slam, you would like to be in:
6 Diamonds always makes with diamonds 3-3 or JT sec. or with a none heart lead and diamonds 4-2 and some 5-1 hands....
And a Heart lead into dummies long suit may be not always the best idea.

I think my bidding had been:
1 ♦ 1 ♥
1 ♠ 2 ♣
3 ♠ 3 NT
4 ♦ 4 ♥
6 ♦

Opener showed 6-5 with extras and asked for KCs., responder showed Hearts, a club Stopper and one Keycard.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I will give it a try (natural methods):

1D - 1H
1S (1) - 2C (2)
3S (3) - 3NT (4)
4NT(5) - pass


(1) natural forcing, 2S would be fourth suit
(2) forth suit forcing, inv. strength or better
(3) 6-5, add. strength
(4) missfit, stopper
(5) quantitative, an alternative would be,to bid 4D, which
would not be key card for us, over which partner
probably will bid 5D

With kind regards
Marlowe

[luke warm]

mine is sorta like matt's

1c : 1h
1s : 2c
2d : 2s (5/5 or better ♥ & ♣)
2nt : 3d (even shortage)
3h : 3nt (1615)
4c : 4s (4 controls)
4nt : 5d (top heart, no top club or all 3 - guess which? )
6d (probably)

opener knows responder has the ♥K and ♣A,K,Q... i think 6s might actually be better, since it seems (don't know for sure if this is right) more likely for diamonds to be 4/3 or 5/2 than for spades to be 6/1

[Codo]

6 Spade is a poor contract: If the diamonds behave, you may still loose control, because you may need ruffs to return to your hand. And if you want to ruff a diamond, you need even more luck in the spade suit, because now your communication is even worse,

[P_Marlowe]

As an additional remark:
If one plays 4th suit as game forcing,
than 3C instead of 2C is better, at least
it tells opener in one go the complete hand,
i.e. bidding would go:

1D - 1H
1S (1) - 3C (2)
3S (3) - 3NT (4)
4NT(5)- pass


(1) natural forcing, 2S would be fourth suit
(2) at least 5-5, game forcing
(3) 6-5, add. strength
(4) missfit, stopper
(5) quantitative

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

1♦ (13+, 4+♦ forcing)
- 1♠ (4+♥)
3♠ (6 - 5)
- 4NT (Quantitative)
5NT (Pick a slam)
- 6♣
Pass?

Very unsure about this auction...

[Echognome]

Codo, on May 28 2006, 07:12 PM, said:

At the table I would like to play against the strong club relayers, because they will fail to reach a slam, you would like to be in:

I'm trying to figure out how this follows.

I've never heard of anyone saying they'd rather be against the strong club relayers when they can relay out the entire hand and make an informed decision! You may disagree with that decision, but it's certainly no fault of the system. For any of the relayers, they at least know the opposing hand down to shape an honour location. Tell me why this is an advantage for you as a defender?

I'm not saying that relayers don't have their own problems. They certainly do. I just don't see it on this hand.

[Codo]

Quote

At the table I would like to play against the strong club relayers, because they will fail to reach a slam, you would like to be in: 


I'm trying to figure out how this follows.

I've never heard of anyone saying they'd rather be against the strong club relayers when they can relay out the entire hand and make an informed decision! You may disagree with that decision, but it's certainly no fault of the system

Sorry for being unclear, but with relaying out the complete hand in this deal, you stop your bidding in game, you do not reach the slam. So I disagree with the descission, not with the system.

Seeing both hands, I find 6 Diamond reasonable enough to be in there, esp. if the bidding will make a Heart lead less likely (what will be the case in some natural bidding sequences). So yes, in this particular hand, relaying out the hand drives you to the wrong descission.

After all, Whereagles reached - without scientific bidding- 6 Spade and made it.
All relayers had lost at least this board to him.....

Quote

For any of the relayers, they at least know the opposing hand down to shape an honour location. Tell me why this is an advantage for you as a defender?

So, lets believe, that we all decide to declare 6 Diamond.
In your relaying sequence, you got to know, that pd has 1516 with Kxxxx and AKQxxx. But you still insisit on 6 Diamond? What do defenders know about your hand?
What suit will they never lead as defender? Clubs and diamonds. They must decide, if they are able to cash a spade or a heart. But you, as a declarer are not afraid of a spade lead, nor are you afraid of not being able to ruff any spades, so it is almost 100 % a certanity, that any good defender will lead a Heart against your bidding.

In Frees relaying bidding, the declarer is north, who showed his hand as precise as you did. Again, what will defender think? The opener has a suit, which is good enough for 6 Diamond opps. this hand, so they need to cash their major suit winner asap. But this time, they may fail, I think the chance for a spade lead is above 50 %.

With Whereagles bidding, the bidding screamed for a trump lead, they obeyed and lost.

With my suggested bidding, a diamond or a club lead are the most expecteded leads.

So in this case, relaying out the hand def. makes it easier for the defenders.