[joshs]

Please help my friend out. My friend's neighbor has a dog. The dog leaves his waste everywhere, including my friends garden and where my friends children play. The children keep getting sick. They have complained to the neighbors and to the police but nothing has been done.

a. Is it in the legal/moral authority of the township to put the dog to sleep?
b. if the town continues to do nothing, can my friend take pre-emptive action before his kids get really sick? Can he kill the dog himself?
c. suppose my friend sold his house and moved, and the dog owner followed him to the new house with his dog, and the dog continued to threaten his kids health, can something be done then?

[mike777]

Huge Dog lover here but this story is full of holes and sounds like nonsense.

1) Of course the town has the moral/legal authority to put a dog to sleep in very very rare cases. It has the right to put people to sleep! I see none here.
2) I would bet the town has done something, not nothing, this really sounds like nonsense. Even if it just answers the phone that is something not nothing. Good Grief. What the heck are kids doing playing in a Garden, for how long, weeks on end? Do they never go home and sleep? What proof do you have the kids are getting sick from the Dog. If you got proof call the police and sue the guy. Talk to the guy, have your lawyer talk to the guy, have the police talk to the guy. Do you call the police every day and they do nothing? Not even answer the phone? Good Grief. My guess is Mom and Dad are more likely to be making the kids sick then the Dog.
3) Threaten the health of the kids, what does that mean, more nonsense, guessing and sillyness?

[DrTodd13]

I don't know what is legal. On moral grounds, if someone violates your property then you are entitled to fair compensation. If you have given a warning and the dog continues to come onto your property then I think you are justified in killing it. I think I might also get some visceral satisfaction by going over to his door step and taking a dump of my own right there.

[Al_U_Card]

No dog lover here, but the story is just whack, I'm afraid. Keeping kids safe from danger (real or perceived) is a parent's job. This includes forbidding children from playing with dynamite or in the traffic. Parental authority must be exercised for the benefit of children.

If the dog is a nuisance, then pursue the authorities as that is their job. If the kids are undisciplined, then teach them better.

[pbleighton]

"I think I might also get some visceral satisfaction by going over to his door step and taking a dump of my own right there."

Spoken like a Forcing Pass player

Peter

[hrothgar]

I hate to say this, but the whole thing sounds kind of silly. I played with plenty of dog ***** in my day. The local sand box was full of crap. I don't recalled every getting sick from it. Hell, this kind of thing is probably good for the immune system. Helps prevent allergies and all that rot.

A. I don't think that a dog should be put to sleep because it takes a dump. It's their nature to piss/***** on things. You might be able to get some kind of injunction tht would compell the dog owner to clean up after the animal. Alternatively, you could try to force said owner to pay to construct a fence arround your friends garden. (All things considered, I suspect that it would be MUCH more cost effective for your friend to erect a fence. Lawsuits are costly)

B. Killing someone's pet is a criminal offense. I did a quick google search. Typical fines range between $500 and $1000. Under exceptional circumstances, you could be looking at a couple year's jail term.

C. This example seems ridiculous. I find it very hard to believe that anyone would move their house in order to assure that their dog continued to crap in your friend's backyard. If this were to happen, I'd argue that the dog/dog ***** is symptomatic of a much deep pathology.

Please note: All these discussions are taken from the perspective of the practical rather than the "moral". I can babble on about moral issues, however, I think that its easier to appeal to the practical.

[joshs]

Maybe people didn't understand the situation. My friends have a garden in their backyard, from which they grow most of their food. They also have an area in there backyard where the kids play. The dog threatens there food supply and their kids health and the dog's owners don't care.

There is not 100% proof the the dog is responsible for the kids getting sick, but there is evidence for it and the 2 doctors they consulted believe the dog is responsable. The parents can't wait until there kids get very sick and they can prove responsability to act, they have to act in a pro-active way to protect their kids. So what should be done?

Now the second situation was the hypothetical that despite taking the extra-ordinary steps of moving, my friends could not escape the dog. This did not involve the neighbors moving. It did involve complicity on the part of their neighbors. Perhaps this was a mob harassment thing. Apparently I am the only one here from New Jersey...

[DJNeill]

Hi Josh,
If the dog is made, make sure to ask permission.

Dan

[luis]

Maybe he should wash the vegetables before eating them?
I agree with the others that said this is a complete nonsense, dogs are dirty but this dog is probably just fertilizing the plants and the kids can't get sick because of him.

Your friend has the right to ask the nighbour to prevent his dog from reaching his garden, but based on how you present things I'm probably going to take the dog's side, sounds like your friend has a problem with dogs and is creating strange stories to do something really terrible.

Luis

[joshs]

Perhaps the dog was sick? The doctors seem to think the dog is responsible (the symptoms are close to a dog spead disease).

[Rain]

Of course its wrong to kill dogs! GRRRRRRRR

Not right of the dog owner to let his dog foul other people's areas. That's what your small claims court or whatever is for? (If you have one in USA, I don't know USA that well.) But litigation seems very common here.

Fine that guy extra for letting his dog foul areas, make him pay for the cleanup. All these are easy.

How can it be an option to kill a dog? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[the saint]

Rain, on Apr 27 2006, 08:33 PM, said:

Of course its wrong to kill dogs! GRRRRRRRR

Not right of the dog owner to let his dog foul other people's areas. That's what your small claims court or whatever is for? (If you have one in USA, I don't know USA that well.) But litigation seems very common here.

Fine that guy extra for letting his dog foul areas, make him pay for the cleanup. All these are easy.

How can it be an option to kill a dog? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Seems about right. The owner of the dog is responsible for ensuring that his pet doesn't foul anyone elses property. Otherwise its a public order offence. Killing the dog is simply absurd. Have a word with the owner and if he refuses to control it, speak to the police. If he then still doesn't do anything, the animal may be taken away from him as he may be proved unfit to own one.

[joshs]

Since I am not sure we are getting to the fundamanetal issue, lets forget about the dog. I don't think the culpret in the story is the dog either, its the owner. Lets say your neighbor was dumping his garbage (including some really foul stuff) in your garden and in the area where your kids play and you kids have been getting sick, and you have strong evidence but not 100% certainty (can we ever have that?) that continual exposure to your neighbor's garbage is hazardess to your kids health.

I am assuming that everyone agrees that we should be able to take legal actions to stop him, but voice up if you disagree. Usually there are laws already in place that should protect you but not always.

Suppossing that the police and other public officials ignore your pleas (your neighbor is too important in town?), what can you do? What is morally legitamate to do? How much proof do you need that youe health is really in danger to take what kind of actions?

[pclayton]

joshs, on Apr 27 2006, 11:06 AM, said:

Please help my friend out. My friend's neighbor has a dog. The dog leaves his waste everywhere, including my friends garden and where my friends children play. The children keep getting sick. They have complained to the neighbors and to the police but nothing has been done.

a. Is it in the legal/moral authority of the township to put the dog to sleep?
b. if the town continues to do nothing, can my friend take pre-emptive action before his kids get really sick? Can he kill the dog himself?
c. suppose my friend sold his house and moved, and the dog owner followed him to the new house with his dog, and the dog continued to threaten his kids health, can something be done then?

A) Yes. We rely on departments like code enforcement and the (County's) health department to take care of issues like this. In a more utopian society, there would be no need to settle inter-neighbor disputes, but thats what we are stuck with. If the dog was a wild animal (many city's have definitions about 'wild and dangerous animals - google "Moe the Chimp") the City would be in its legal rights to put the animal down. In addition, I think that there is a clear tort action your friend could pursue.

B ) I'd have to be really convinced that there is nothing your friend can do to mitigate his children's illnesses that are caused by the dog before he took preemptive action to destroy his neighbor's property.

C) I don't understand this point? Is the neighbor trespassing onto your friend's new (or old for that matter) with the dog? If that was the case, I'd be less concerned about the dog being shot than the owner.

Of course, if the dog got a hold of some milk-bones laced with cumadin, that would be an unfortunate accident, would it not?

[bid_em_up]

Why cant they just put up a fence to keep the dog out?

Try complaining to Animal Control instead of the police. Yes, Animal Control is usually a function of the police department, but not always.

Most towns these days have leash laws or will confiscate animals that are on the loose, and hold for the owner to retrieve, usually with a warning/citation and a fee. Subsequent incidents with the same animal, may result in heavier fines or the owner being declared unfit to own the pet. The trick is, in some cases, the Animal Control officer actually has to see the animal running free. Simple solution, catch the dog and hold for animal control to remove.

If all else fails, as a last resort, steak laced with rat poison can be quite effective.

[DrTodd13]

If the dog comes in your yard and does his business (to me, the family getting sick is irrelevant...you don't have a right to trespass even if it doesn't result in sickness) and you tell the neighbor and he doesn't stop it, and you tell the police and they don't stop him, and you sue the neighbor and you lose and you exhaust all "legal" means to deal with the situation then I still believe you have a moral right to rectify the situation. Public consensus be damned. Your property rights should be absolute. You've tried to peacefully resolve things and that failed so now I think you have the _moral_ right to kill the dog. Of course, if you get to this point then you know very few people agree with you and that if the dog dies you're the #1 suspect and now society is going to impose a penalty on you for doing it.

[hrothgar]

joshs, on Apr 28 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

Suppossing that the police and other public officials ignore your pleas (your neighbor is too important in town?), what can you do? What is morally legitamate to do? How much proof do you need that your health is really in danger to take what kind of actions?

Once again, lets consider the realm of the practical:

Assume for the moment that the hypotheticial neighbor is sufficently well connected that the police/court system is unwilling to intervene and enforce the relevant leash laws.

Would it not also be reasonable to assume that the neighbor is sufficiently well connected to ensure that the police / court system did intervene when his precious pooch turned up dead? Equally significant, from the sounds of things your friend has already created a nice little paper trail that is going to lead right back to him if said pooch were to pass on.

Simply put: I think tht your friend is screwed. I think that it would be a massive mistake for him to escalate the altercation. In an ideal world, a good fence might help keep out the deer/rabbits.

[Badmonster]

Your friend doesn't mind killing people's pets to "protect" his kids, but putting up a fence is just too much trouble? The neighbors are jerks and inconsiderate, but your friend is an animal.

[Badmonster]

joshs, on Apr 27 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

Since I am not sure we are getting to the fundamanetal issue, lets forget about the dog. I don't think the culpret in the story is the dog either, its the owner. Lets say your neighbor was dumping his garbage (including some really foul stuff) in your garden and in the area where your kids play and you kids have been getting sick, and you have strong evidence but not 100% certainty (can we ever have that?) that continual exposure to your neighbor's garbage is hazardess to your kids health.

I am assuming that everyone agrees that we should be able to take legal actions to stop him, but voice up if you disagree. Usually there are laws already in place that should protect you but not always.

Suppossing that the police and other public officials ignore your pleas (your neighbor is too important in town?), what can you do? What is morally legitamate to do? How much proof do you need that youe health is really in danger to take what kind of actions?

If the culpret is the neighbor not the dog why isn't the question whether it's ok to kill the neighbor?

[joshs]

Badmonster, on Apr 27 2006, 04:34 PM, said:

joshs, on Apr 27 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

Since I am not sure we are getting to the fundamanetal issue, lets forget about the dog. I don't think the culpret in the story is the dog either, its the owner. Lets say your neighbor was dumping his garbage (including some really foul stuff) in your garden and in the area where your kids play and you kids have been getting sick, and you have strong evidence but not 100% certainty (can we ever have that?) that continual exposure to your neighbor's garbage is hazardess to your kids health.

I am assuming that everyone agrees that we should be able to take legal actions to stop him, but voice up if you disagree. Usually there are laws already in place that should protect you but not always.

Suppossing that the police and other public officials ignore your pleas (your neighbor is too important in town?), what can you do? What is morally legitamate to do? How much proof do you need that youe health is really in danger to take what kind of actions?

If the culpret is the neighbor not the dog why isn't the question whether it's ok to kill the neighbor?

Yes is it ok to kill the neighbor (or something less serious aimed at the neighbor, perhaps burning down his house?, or in equal measure to the crime at hand poisoning him?) to protect your health and safety, given all other options have been exausted. If so, what are the standards?

Now when Todd says "property rights should be absolute", I am not really sure what that means, since your property rights (you own a dog and the dog runs around and does things like dogs do) can infringe on others "property rights". Also, in order to protect my property rights, without each of us killing each other over every little thing, we pay taxes (which sort of takes away from your property) in order to insure there is an infrastructure capable of settling these problems (e.g. there is a police, a court system, etc.), so inherently being party of a society involves some relincuishment of your property rights via "a social contract". So part of the question is:
a. in the abstract without such a social contract, what are you morally entitled to do when someone else threatens your health or safety (or property or whatever)
b. having made a social contract, but the governmental authorities don't act, do lwe lose whatever ability to act that you would have had without the social contract?