[luke warm]

i'd pass the 3c bid and i'd take a double of 3c to be penalty... if 2s was non-forcing, what is my upside for bidding? if partner has diamond support (say some x53x hand) and 9-11 or so, he can still compete... with 6 spades and the same strength, he can compete... with a black 2 suiter, he can double

i just don't see any reason to bid or double a partscore here

[Free]

We have a fairly simple rule: if we're in front of the suit, Dbl is takeout (unless it can't be takeout anymore). If we're behind it, it's penalty. So Dbl here should be takeout. What can we be asking? Exactly this hand: 4♥, 2♠ and 5+♦.

I'd Dbl whenever it's takeout.

[Fluffy]

It looks right for you to play double as penalties.... but what about parner?

Would his double of 3♣ be penalty? I doubt it, therefore if he wanted to penalise it his only hope is to pass for you to reaopen with a take out double. That would mean the take out double is the best treatment.

[mike777]

Sure responder's x of 3C would be penalty, why not unless all x's are never penalty? P has around 8-12 hcp for his NFB across from 11 hcp openers.

Keep in mind her 2S is NFB, she expects you to pass very very often. This style gives up the ability to compete to 3 level in non spade fit often! I think the issue here is everyone wants the ability to compete to the 3 level playing NFB in nonspade fits. Pard ain't going to have 4 hearts or 4d or 4 clubs on this auction. Pard could have 6 spades or 3 d or 5=3=2=3 shape with good spades.

You give up the ability to find 9 card d fit and 8 card spade fit unless you want to guess and want to make a takeout with opener's hand in balance seat. I would not be surprised to see all 3 level contracts go down on this one. Keep in mind our RHO did not make a courtesy raise to 3clubs? Why?

[whereagles]

MickyB, on Feb 10 2006, 04:20 PM, said:

But what if the 2♠ bidder has a stiff club and wants to compete? He needs double to be takeout, and the double should mean the same from both sides.

Double for penalties is perfectly playable. Same thing for double for takeout. It's a matter of agreement, really.

[han]

1) Do you think double here is better as takeout or penalty?


I think that it is better as takeout, and I play it as penalty in my regular partnerships. Does that make sense? Yes I think so, we have meta-agreements for doubles that may not be perfect in all situations but at least we (almost) always know what our agreements are (and we think that the meta-agreements are usually good too).

2) If double is takeout, what do you bid?


Very difficult, I think that I would double. It depends a bit on your agreements about 2S. If it shows about 8-11 points then I would double, if it show about 5-9 points then I would pass.

3) If double is penalty, what do you bid?

Well, pass obviously!

[mike777]

whereagles, on Feb 11 2006, 02:06 PM, said:

MickyB, on Feb 10 2006, 04:20 PM, said:

But what if the 2♠ bidder has a stiff club and wants to compete? He needs double to be takeout, and the double should mean the same from both sides.

Double for penalties is perfectly playable. Same thing for double for takeout. It's a matter of agreement, really.

If you have a detailed agreement none of this is an issue. The point is most of the time even Hamman or Zia do not have an agreement with most of their partners because most of the hands they play are not with long term partners. I would guess 99.99% of the hands they have played in their lifetime were not with Soloway, Wolff or Rosenberg. Has even 5% of your lifetime bridge been covered with detailed agreements such as this?

[whereagles]

mike, we're discussing agreements, not judgement over a non-agreed situation.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Feb 12 2006, 10:58 AM, said:

mike, we're discussing agreements, not judgement over a non-agreed situation.

This time I agree with Mike:
it is true that virtually anything can be played "upside down" by agreement, but in some situation there exist "bridge logic" that indicates one choice is better than the other...

For example, If pard opens a weak 2 and opps overcall, what's the meaning of double ?
You may say that it's a matter of agreements, but indeed most players play it as penalty.

From what I read it seems to me that this thread is trying to sort out the best approach, and I do not think that choosing penalty or takeout is only a matter of agreement, in this situation there is a high likelyhood that one will fare better than the other.

[whereagles]

Hum.. isn't that discussing agreements?

Oh, and incidently, if you're playing 5-cards weak 2s, there's a case for playing dbl as take-out

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Feb 12 2006, 01:53 PM, said:

Hum.. isn't that discussing agreements?

If you want, that means discussing "the effectiveness of agreements", which one you prefer and why...
so it's too easy to just say "it's a matter of agreements, any agreement will work as long as you have one", but I think that if you want to make a meaningful discussion rather you should explain which one is more efficient and why

It's way too easy to respond "matter of agreement " LOL, that could be said for almost any topic
One should discuss further the details :-)

[whereagles]

Hum.. yeah.. well, isn't "discussing agreements" a short-hand for "discussing effectiveness of agreements" anyway?