BBO Discussion Forums: What is an Ace worth? - BBO Discussion Forums

Style question:

1♦-(1♠)-3♦ = ?

In particular, what is partner supposed to do with 18-19 BAL? Pass? Not pass below 3N?

nullve, on 2021-August-01, 19:32, said:

Our rule of thumb is that opener should not expect to make 3N with a balanced 19 count after we make a preemptive raise

I played in 4♦+1. lead A♠
Partner has come from the bridge lessons where new players are taught that Aces are worth 4 points but fail to tell them that they will need to develop bidding judgement after learning the fundamentals.

mikeh, on 2021-August-01, 19:27, said:

You know me better than that, an Ace is more than enough for me to get into the bidding. . Take away the Ace and I'll still bid 3♦

mikeh, on 2021-August-01, 19:27, said:

Ouch. Thank heavens I was 1453

I'm with mikeh. I would add that from a tactical viewpoint Spades outrank both of our suits. If the opponents had overcalled in hearts and I had spades and diamonds, I might stretch to make a negative double, but here it's pointless. Finally, what values I have are defensive - an Ace is a black suit.

jillybean, on 2021-August-01, 22:49, said:

I cannot construct a 1453 hand where opener’s bidding makes sense. What would you require for a reopening double of 1S?

If partner sits for it, and you can make game, you are almost surely going +500 or more. It’s nearly impossible that you have missed a slam since responder should not pass with a big red suit holding (in either red suit) without ‘impossible’ spades.

mikeh, on 2021-August-02, 08:05, said:

By no means impossible but very unlikely (QJ108x, x, xxx, AKxx looks decent for 6♦ if the trap pass is your style here)

I agree this is an obvious reopening double.

mikeh, on 2021-August-02, 08:05, said:

With 1453 why is a reopening double better than bidding this hand?

1♦ (1♠) P (P)
X (2♠) P (P)
?

jillybean, on 2021-August-02, 09:59, said:

because partner assumes you have more shape for not doubling, this is just an archetypal X.

You X again now

To answer the original question, an ace is actually worth 4 1/2 points. I have heard some bidding theorists evaluate them as high as 5 1/2, but I don't usually go that high. The hand in question I would evaluate (at the first opportunity to bid) as 4 1/2 + 2(doubletons) + 1(5 card suit). With 7 1/2 in value, it is worth taking action a the first opportunity.

If you don't want to add the doubletons because with a minor you are shooting for nt, that's fine, it's still worth 5 1/2 and should still take action.

jillybean, on 2021-August-02, 09:59, said:

I am not being sarcastic, but what do you think a reopening double shows?

In essence, the only times one reopens with a suit bid are when:

- we’d pull a double if we were playing penalty doubles and partner had doubled 1S.

- we can’t stand a possible suit bid by partner. Say we open 1D and have to decide what, if anything, to do with a modest 5-5 minors, say 2=1=5=5. Even if partner is glossed in spades, the opps must have a good heart fit most of the time, so doubling may not get rich. But more importantly, if partner bids hearts after we double, we’re almost certainly screwed.

jillybean, on 2021-August-02, 09:59, said:

I am not being sarcastic, but what do you think a reopening double shows?

In essence, the only times one reopens with a suit bid are when:

- we’d pull a double if we were playing penalty doubles and partner had doubled 1S.

- we can’t stand a possible suit bid by partner. Say we open 1D and have to decide what, if anything, to do with a modest 5-5 minors, say 2=1=5=5. Even if partner is glossed in spades, the opps must have a good heart fit most of the time, so doubling may not get rich. But more importantly, if partner bids hearts after we double, we’re almost certainly screwed.

Oh, and if it goes 1D (1S) P (P) x (2S) P (P) to you…..I know you’re playing with inexperienced partners, but what kind of hand should partner have?

With your actual hand, you’re strong enough, and have sufficient clubs and hearts, to double again.. make it a 15 count, and you’d pass.

jillybean, on 2021-August-02, 09:59, said:

It helps if you know the history behind the bids. In olden days double by responder was penalty. When negative doubles became the vogue, opener became obligated to reopen with a double in case responder had to make a penalty pass. This wasn’t too successful so that idea was modified to reopen with shortness in the overcalled suit and normal defense.

It then followed logically that if opener bid rather than doubled it was due to holding playing strength but not as much defensive strength as a normal opening or simply too unbalanced to play defense.

HardVector, on 2021-August-02, 11:52, said:

I’ve never heard of an ace being worth 4.5 hcp. Yes, it’s undervalued by the 4321 count, as are kings, while queens and jacks are overvalued.

However, these values are ‘ideal’ in that, in the real world, it’s silly to assign the same value to every ace one holds, or to every king,and so on.

Honours gain value for offense by being in long suits. They lose value for defence if in long suits.

Honours gain in value, for offence, by combining with other honours or good spots, especially in long suits. They gain more modestly from combinations for defence,specially in long suits.

They gain for offence by fitting partner’s hand. They gain for both offence and defence by being behind an opp who has shown values, especially in suits where we hold honours. They decline in value when in front of an opponent showing values

These are some of the reasons I don’t use arithmetical rules for hand evaluation other than when sorting my hand before the auction starts or for undisturbed quantitative notrump bidding, and even there I have all kinds of adjustments I make, based on whether I ‘like’ my hand or not.

mikeh, on 2021-August-02, 12:29, said:

%^*&!

Yes, this hand is a perfect reopening double. So I'm still masterminding, spelling it out for partner.
What does a 1D (1S); 2H (2S); 3C auction like this show?

1D (1S) P (P) X (2S) P (P) - partner will have something like 5323 , 4423 , 4324 less the an Ace.

jillybean, on 2021-August-02, 17:13, said:

1D (1S) P (P) 2H should be 4=6 or better in the reds, with more than a minimum…if only 4 hearts, then significantly more

If LHO then bids 2S, passed back to us,I do not believe that I’ve ever seen anyone bid 3C.

Possibly a fairly good 0=4=5=4, bearing in mind that very strong 0=4=5=4 hands had 2S available and you’ve already shown a good hand (especially with only 4 hearts) by bidding 2H. Indeed, I’m not at all sure that one should reopen 2H with any 4=5 reds. If not strong enough to bid 2S, I’d suggest either doubling (ugly with a void) or bidding 2C….after all, partner doesn’t have values and 4+ hearts, so bidding 2H on 4=5 is really strange, to me.

Definitely not 1444….all such hands double 1S as do all 1=4=5=3 hands.

3C is very close to a DNE call.

Thanks. I think perhaps I will content myself with getting good results at bad - mediocre club bridge and stop bashing my head against the wall with this level of detail.

Whilst North might have taken a simpler route, North's problem comes from South masterminding. If South just supports Diamonds, a reasonable auction is 1♦ (1♠ ) 3♦ - 5♦ possibly with a cue bid or two on the way.

Douglas43, on 2021-August-03, 02:48, said:

Losing a spade and two hearts on the double finesse missing the 8? Am I missing something obvious?

DavidKok, on 2021-August-03, 03:42, said:

Why would you lose 2 hearts, where do you think the singleton honour is more likely to be, run the 9. Alternatively eliminate the blacks and then play a heart to the 10.

Oh, of course. Oops.