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- Are players obliged to call the director only when somebody correctly describes the precise nature of the irregularity?
- Suppose, as here, players remark on an irregularity and volunteer their own ruling (right or wrong). From a legal point of view, has attention been drawn to an irregularity? It's obvious what I think
- Is dummy obliged to call the director, immediately somebody else draws attention to an irregularity? May he wait to see if anybody else will call the director? If the infraction is by declarer, may dummy deliberately wait until the end of play, hoping that the defenders are awarded less redress? I don't have feelings either way on these latter questions.
A little knowledge is dangerous (another new rule)
#21
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Posted 2013-September-22, 15:45
#22
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Posted 2013-September-22, 16:01
nige1, on 2013-September-22, 15:45, said:
Are players obliged to call the director only when somebody correctly describes the precise nature of the irregularity?
Suppose, as here, players remark on an irregularity and volunteer their own ruling (right or wrong). From a legal point of view, has attention been drawn to an irregularity?
It's obvious what I think
Suppose, as here, players remark on an irregularity and volunteer their own ruling (right or wrong). From a legal point of view, has attention been drawn to an irregularity?
It's obvious what I think
Again...nobody commented on an irregularity; the comment was the irregularity, and the OP doesn't indicate further comment afterward. Declarer's carelessness was not an irregularity ---just a space-out play.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2013-September-22, 16:47
aguahombre, on 2013-September-22, 16:01, said:
Again...nobody commented on an irregularity; the comment was the irregularity, and the OP doesn't indicate further comment afterward. Declarer's carelessness was not an irregularity ---just a space-out play.
jillybean, on 2013-September-21, 17:35, said:
LHO piped in and said, "put it back in your hand, declarer cannot have a penalty card".
#24
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Posted 2013-September-22, 17:11
What is David Burn likes to say about what the laws intended? Something about "we hang for what they wrote". The laws say what they say, and I for one am not going to start guessing what the drafters intended. Nor, I think, should anyone else.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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Posted 2013-September-22, 21:51
Vampyr, on 2013-September-21, 19:31, said:
It seems like a good idea to "be nice" to rookies, but a solid understanding of the rules will be more useful to him in the long run.
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Posted 2013-September-23, 01:42
blackshoe, on 2013-September-22, 14:11, said:
pran, on 2013-September-22, 12:11, said:
You (I believe) confuse this Law with Law 9B which requests all four players (including dummy during the play period) to call the Director immediately once attention has been drawn to an irregularity.
Law 9B requires that the Director be called when attention has been drawn to an irregularity. It allows any player, including dummy, to do so.
Sorry, as English is not my native language I do make such mistakes.
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Posted 2013-September-23, 07:05
pran, on 2013-September-23, 01:42, said:
Sorry, as English is not my native language I do make such mistakes.
No worries. I guess the point is that if nobody calls the TD when attention has been drawn to an irregularity, both sides have committed an infraction. If the law merely requested that the TD be called, it wouldn't be an infraction not to do so.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#28
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Posted 2013-September-23, 07:22
blackshoe, on 2013-September-23, 07:05, said:
No worries. I guess the point is that if nobody calls the TD when attention has been drawn to an irregularity, both sides have committed an infraction. If the law merely requested that the TD be called, it wouldn't be an infraction not to do so.
My ruling in such cases will pretty often be that the table result stands.
Both sides have jeopardized their rights. If one side has received an obviously unfair and good result there might be a case for Law 81C3 against the "fortunate" side, possibly also effective for the other side.
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Posted 2013-September-23, 07:29
Vampyr, on 2013-September-21, 19:31, said:
It seems like a good idea to "be nice" to rookies, but a solid understanding of the rules will be more useful to him in the long run.
Vampyr, on 2013-September-21, 21:19, said:
Well, if the opponents let him pick up and change his card this time, declarer will wonder why it is not allowed next time.
I do agree that teaching the rules is important. But, for really new players (their first few sessions maybe) I have come to think that the top priority is retention - keeping them coming back. That means making him/her feel comfortable, at ease, and enjoying it, with all other considerations secondary. There will be plenty of time to teach the rules ... but not if they stop attending.
Yes, there may be a type of player who prefers the letter of the law right from day one, but experience tells me this is small minority.
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Posted 2013-September-23, 09:15
billw55, on 2013-September-23, 07:29, said:
I do agree that teaching the rules is important. But, for really new players (their first few sessions maybe) I have come to think that the top priority is retention - keeping them coming back. That means making him/her feel comfortable, at ease, and enjoying it, with all other considerations secondary. There will be plenty of time to teach the rules ... but not if they stop attending.
Yes, there may be a type of player who prefers the letter of the law right from day one, but experience tells me this is small minority.
Yes, there may be a type of player who prefers the letter of the law right from day one, but experience tells me this is small minority.
I suspect that many players, whatever their level, would just as soon do what they like, and the Devil take the rules. But few of them, if any, would admit it.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#31
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Posted 2013-September-23, 10:14
I think the irregularity is the change of card by declarer. No one drew attention to this, so there's no obligation to call the director. If someone had said "are you allowed to do that?" or something similar then the director should have been called.
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Posted 2013-September-23, 21:01
VixTD, on 2013-September-23, 10:14, said:
I think the irregularity is the change of card by declarer. No one drew attention to this, so there's no obligation to call the director. If someone had said "are you allowed to do that?" or something similar then the director should have been called.
Is telling the declarer to pick up his card, to go ahead and change it, drawing attention to the irregularity? I mean, think of someone who had his back to the table and heard this comment. He would know that something irregular was taking place.
Nigel's questions above are good ones that need to be answered.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2013-September-24, 00:16
nige1, on 2013-September-22, 15:45, said:
- Are players obliged to call the director only when somebody correctly describes the precise nature of the irregularity?
- Suppose, as here, players remark on an irregularity and volunteer their own ruling (right or wrong). From a legal point of view, has attention been drawn to an irregularity? It's obvious what I think
- Is dummy obliged to call the director, immediately somebody else draws attention to an irregularity? May he wait to see if anybody else will call the director? If the infraction is by declarer, may dummy deliberately wait until the end of play, hoping that the defenders are awarded less redress? I don't have feelings either way on these latter questions.
- No.
- Yes.
- Yes. No. No. Law 9B1{a}: The Director should be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity. (Emphasis mine).
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#34
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Posted 2013-September-24, 01:37
Vampyr, on 2013-September-23, 21:01, said:
Is telling the declarer to pick up his card, to go ahead and change it, drawing attention to the irregularity? I mean, think of someone who had his back to the table and heard this comment. He would know that something irregular was taking place.
Nigel's questions above are good ones that need to be answered.
Nigel's questions above are good ones that need to be answered.
At some point I thought so, too. But, I surrendered. Something verbal by a defender was an irregularity, but nobody drew attention to it; the picking up of the card as directed by the defender was an irregularity, but nobody drew attention to it. People think irregularities draw attention to themselves; they don't. Declarer's original goof was not an irregularity; his comment that he was stupid is a technical irregularity of absolutely no consequence, because it only drew attention to his own stupidity..... and we can't get past that.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2013-September-24, 09:38
aguahombre, on 2013-September-24, 01:37, said:
Something verbal by a defender was an irregularity, but nobody drew attention to it; the picking up of the card as directed by the defender was an irregularity, but nobody drew attention to it.
The first drew attention to the second.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2013-September-24, 10:12
EBU White Book 2013 2.6.2.3 said:
2.6.2.3 Drawing attention to a possible irregularity
Any comment at the table which points to the possibility of an irregularity draws attention to the irregularity within the meaning of Law 9B1 (a). If no request for a ruling is then stated, the players are in the position generally of players when attention is drawn to an irregularity and the director is not summoned forthwith.
Reservation of Rights under Law 16B2 does not override this condition if the request for a ruling is not then made within the time limit specified above.
Any comment at the table which points to the possibility of an irregularity draws attention to the irregularity within the meaning of Law 9B1 (a). If no request for a ruling is then stated, the players are in the position generally of players when attention is drawn to an irregularity and the director is not summoned forthwith.
Reservation of Rights under Law 16B2 does not override this condition if the request for a ruling is not then made within the time limit specified above.
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Posted 2013-September-24, 10:25
Vampyr, on 2013-September-24, 09:38, said:
The first drew attention to the second.
Can you really draw attention to an irregularity which hasn't occured yet by first saying something which itself an irregularity? I don't think that meets the requirement for drawing attention.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2013-September-24, 11:06
aguahombre, on 2013-September-24, 10:25, said:
Can you really draw attention to an irregularity which hasn't occured yet by first saying something which itself an irregularity? I don't think that meets the requirement for drawing attention.
It does in the EBU -- see White Book passage quoted above.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2013-September-24, 11:16
Vampyr, on 2013-September-24, 11:06, said:
It does in the EBU -- see White Book passage quoted above.
Interesting. By that interpretation, you can via your own irregularity, both create an irregularity in the future and draw attention to it at the same time.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2013-September-24, 11:25
aguahombre, on 2013-September-24, 11:16, said:
Interesting. By that interpretation, you can via your own irregularity, both create an irregularity in the future and draw attention to it at the same time.
Well, maybe yes and maybe no -- I can't understand what you are saying at all! Anyway, any comment such as "put that back in your hand" certainly "points to" an irregularity -- ie a card being replaced by another.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein