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5341. nz teams

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 13:47

Our first team game of the local (NZ) team championships was a humbling experience, here's just one board.



Did you open 2, what now?
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#2 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 13:58

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 13:47, said:

Our first team game of the local (NZ) team championships was a humbling experience, here's just one board.



Did you open 2, what now?


I would open 1

As is, I rebid 4
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 14:04

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-May-05, 13:58, said:

I would open 1

As is, I rebid 4


If you open 1, partner bids 1nt* forcing.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#4 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 14:21

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 14:04, said:

If you open 1, partner bids 1nt* forcing.


3
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 14:22

I, too, would open 1S and I think the auction after 1N would be:

1S-1NT
3D-3H
4H-?

Don't know what happens next but the big hand is pretty well described.
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 14:36

What would be required for partner to show hearts directly over 2 and how would they do it ?

I suspect 4 is right.

I would open 1, would worry about just bidding 4 over 3 if the auction went 1-1N-3-3 as this could be a little weaker than this. Would also want to know what 1-3 would have been. 4 if the agreement is that it's a stronger 4 rather than a void would make sense.
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#7 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 15:21

I too would have opened 1.
But at this point I bid a natural 4 and wait for developments, which do not exclude a natural 4NT.
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#8 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 15:55

I don't mind 2 as long as 4 isn't diamonds (whether it's support for hearts or a self-sufficient spade suit they'll find out eventually). You make 6 on the A and either QTxxx and the K, or one-of-two finesses with KTxxx and no diamond K. Hard to convince partner that two control cards is a good shot at slam, when they've shown one, but 4 (begging partner for the A) might do it.

My biases against opening 2 with two-suiters, especially 5M4m, are well known here. Being able to bid 4 and not have it taken as "pointy two-suiter, we've bypassed our best contract already" is a big reason why.

If you open 1-1NTF; 3-3, same thing, you need to find the same cards. Does partner know that when you shape out with 4?
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 16:48



Here's the full hand, I did open 1, but we didn't find the slam. 8/12 teams did.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 16:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-05, 14:36, said:

What would be required for partner to show hearts directly over 2 and how would they do it ?

Over 2 partner would bid 3. For us this would set trump and ask partner to cue bid.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 16:58

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 16:48, said:



Here's the full hand, I did open 1, but we didn't find the slam. 8/12 teams did.


Once partner has bid 4, you're hand is looking really good.

You have four low clubs opposite partner's known shortage, a fitting honor in Diamonds, your hearts are quite good, and the doubleton spade is actually pretty good (all things considered)
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 17:16

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-May-05, 16:58, said:

Once partner has bid 4, you're hand is looking really good.

You have four low clubs opposite partner's known shortage, a fitting honor in Diamonds, your hearts are quite good, and the doubleton spade is actually pretty good (all things considered)


Looks even better if instead of 4 the auction goes 4-4
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 17:22

And I get a bit of a win here over the common world. Not saying "I'm right, they're wrong"; in fact, I could go either way.

But if I do open 2 on this hand, I think partner would consider this enough (bog minimum, but enough) for 2 natural positive. "5 cards to two/top 3, and something else useful". 2-2; 3 and we should now have enough room to find the slam trivially. Not sure, if I have to bid 2NT to say this (common in my area where 2 is immediate double negative), if I would (in this case, it doesn't matter, because it's 2-2NT!; 3 and we're in the same place).

But your compatriots playing control responses to 2, too, are happy (even if they've wrongsided the spade suit if you play there).

I'm liking Yeti's "4 showing a better than minimum 4 raise" more and more; almost certain my partners wouldn't get it (they'd treat it as a heart raise, but a cue. Maybe that's all I need, if I get 4 in response. Are we 100% sure we're on the same page about:
? Or is this a Kickback 4 auction (at least that's ambiguous as to suit; whether it's passed because partner's confused is Yet Another Kickback Question)

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#14 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 18:31

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 16:56, said:

Over 2 partner would bid 3. For us this would set trump and ask partner to cue bid.


From the description of 2, it looks like you are playing a 2 response as a double negative. If so, how does responder show just a good heart suit?
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 18:58

View Postjohnu, on 2021-May-05, 18:31, said:

From the description of 2, it looks like you are playing a 2 response as a double negative. If so, how does responder show just a good heart suit?

Yes, 2 is negative. Partner can't show just good hearts except via 2 2 2x 2/3.
This may be a flaw in our system but, is anything perfect? I think I first learned over 2 to bid 2 with A or K, 2 bust, 2/3M "positive". Now we are much more likely to use 2 waiting and allow the strong hand to describe their hand.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 19:13

Playing that system, I would definitely look into "2NT=heart positive".

You don't want responder bidding NT and wrong-siding the NT contract, so having it be "the hand you can't show any more", that is likely to play in that suit works well. If you end up in 6NT from the wrong side, it shouldn't be that big a deal. And it's certainly better than needing to bid 3 - and you won't need to have quite so powerful a suit to worry about taking up all that room to show it.

As you know I play 2 semi-automatic, cheapest 3 2nd negative (with Kokish Relay with one partner) by preference; but the preference is really really small. I could very easily be convinced into 2 immediate double negative - as long as I don't lose my heart positive for the one hand a year I need it!
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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 19:38

Personally, I think north should be gently told that you can subtract a jack and a king from that hand and we are still in a game forcing auction - with a good trump suit and a fitting king as extra values and with almost zero club wastage it is terribly shy to let the bidding die at 4h.
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#18 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 19:45

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 21:35

View Postakwoo, on 2021-May-05, 19:45, said:

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.

Our opponents, who found the slam were playing strong club. I don't know about the other teams but I would imagine some/many would be playing it, I'm not sure if it would be 8/12 teams though.

5 tells partner, I have this sort of hand and does it ask partner to cue if more than a minimum?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#20 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 21:41

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-May-05, 19:38, said:

Personally, I think north should be gently told that you can subtract a jack and a king from that hand and we are still in a game forcing auction - with a good trump suit and a fitting king as extra values and with almost zero club wastage it is terribly shy to let the bidding die at 4h.

How does North go on after 3? or do you mean South?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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